SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your husband wanted stability with you and to get these unhealthy needs met with her.

Sure. I can understand the concept intellectually. It's foreign from my thinking and from the husband I knew and how I imagined he thought. It's difficult to fully comprehend and take it all in and form a complete picture of him and the marriage. It doesn't conform with what he said or how he acted otherwise. I've spoken to him at length, read on surviving infidelity and other adultery sites, and I now have a type of overall comprehension or story. When I was asking questions that may have sounded the same over and over, but were slightly different; I don't feel like I was grilling or testing my WS. I was trying to understand how they felt and thought at that point. Who are they? Who were they then? It probably does feel exhausting to a WS.

The further their thought processes and ideas are from yours, the less you can identify. I had a friend whose husband used sex workers. She said anytime she thought of it, there were more questions. If I had a spouse who invited an affair partner to our wedding, I'm sure I would find myself going through multiple layers of questions. We are fortunate to have people like you here to help.

I have gained more from this site than I could have given. I still do get a lot.

The many questions make complete sense to me. I didn’t get as tired of answering them once I started to catch on to just how catastrophic what I did was. I will say that my husband didn’t ask me as many questions as I did of him. I still ask questions because despite who I am and what I have done, I too had this very pristine image of him in my mind. I can not get it to fit either even though I also intellectually understand a lot of it. In some ways it made me realize this pedestal I had him on was just another part of my own brains circus mirrors.

But I will always miss that version of him too. So some of it you can be closer to understanding but it doesn’t negate the loss. I just do not ever really go there because it is weird to talk about that as if I hadn’t done it first.

I am sorry if this was a thread jack, I will bow out to keep focus on the main question now.

Grammy,

You have a lot going for you here. Obviously not the situation, but your reaction and your thought process surrounding it. You’re not smoking hopium. You’re doing your best to see things as they actually are, not telling yourself lies to make yourself feel better. That puts you way ahead of most people.

I’m sure you’ve read a bunch. Maybe even years back in the just found out forum. If you haven’t, there are great history lessons there. Plenty of years long stories that serve as a warning of what not to do.
The biggest lesson, which I think you already grasp, is what my first paragraph was about. If you try to twist the story around "maybe she just temporarily went off the deep end" "I think she was manipulated!" "It wasn’t entirely her fault, I could have been better" and so on, is just the worst thing you could do to yourself. Us men especially, we want to take on the burden and fix things! Cause that’s what we’re good at. Not here. They have to fix themselves along with making things right with the BS.

Remain skeptical.

Reflecting on title of your thread and something you posted:

MONDAY she asked to come back and that she really wanted to make it work. I threw out my wedding ring, her dress, and all the pictures. GONE FOREVER. I agreed to allow her to remain and we talked calmly and affectionately, she jumped my bones that night and slept soundly, I however didn't sleep or eat and curled into the couch to stare at the wall and cry alone.

Some people relate to others in ways the "other" is not used to or aware - or is not acknowledging.

My take (from experience) - well, title of this thread is why she is what she is.

Maybe she has some shred of or a sort of morality such that she thinks she should not move on out of your life. Or, basic indecision and also no other rock to jump to while crossing the stream. (of life)

Then, some people just don't have whatever it takes to really cotton to someone.

Plan for your relationship to remain iffy or worse and what will you do when you realize no change?

I'd be more concerned about a person who stays faithful out of fear of getting caught. Just as a person who feels need for external validation is at risk of cheating, so is someone who fears (external) calumny is at risk.

IMO, the WS who is worth the risk of R is te person who has decided to change from cheater to good partner. The person whose gut says 'I'm not going to (re)start cheating now' is the good bet for R.

As others have said, you can't know for sure, but you can look out for confirmation over time. Personally, I'm a big fan of love language theory, which is that everybody gives and receives love mainly through the five love languages-- physical touch, quality time, gift giving, words of affirmation, and acts of service. So, beyond doing what you ask of her or initiate with her, you might look out for signs like:

- initiating kisses, hugs, caresses, hand holding, massages, and other kinds of physical affection

- planning dates or trips together, going out of her way to be in the same room as you even if you're doing different activities, inviting you out for errands or to social events that are normally just her and her social group, or accompanying you to such errands or events

- giving you genuine, unique compliments, expressing appreciation for you, writing you love notes, sending you "I miss you" or "thinking of you" type texts, being forthcoming about what she likes about you, or thoughtfully written cards, poems, or songs

- remembering your favorite things and bringing them home when she encounters them, carefully selecting meaningful birthday and holiday gifts, or saving up for gifts for you that require her to go without spending on herself for significant time periods

- anticipating your physical wants or needs and meeting them ahead of time, taking on additional work to make your life easier or more comfortable, or actively looking for projects or tasks to take off your plate

Watch her for a while and see how much effort she puts into any of these things. She's more likely to do them, and do more of them, if she really loves you for you. They can be faked, but faked love language will seem less sincere, and it's hard to maintain for long periods of time.

In the end this is not really the important question:

When someone betrays you they show you exactly where you stand in their scale of value and that is not where you placed them at: on top, protected by the world with everything you have because they are chosen. The only one person that is truly worthy to be a integral part of your inner world.

Betrayal and infidelity flips the table. They value you and your inner world less than the lowest of the lows, a random person with no self respect and they enjoy devastating your world for soothing their and affair partner’s ego from low self worth.

That reflects your value in their eyes, no matter if temporary or permanent, you don’t betray what you respect.

Once you reclaim your self respect the only one question that matters is this:

Is this person now worth your time, attention and affection?

Anything else doesn’t matter.

It’s about how you value yourself, external validation is worthless.

This is valid for everyone in your life.

You dedicate yourself to someone if there’s reciprocation. That someone needs to earn where you placed them in your world. That’s simply a measure of how you value yourself and is reflected by others.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 6:25 AM, Friday, May 15th]

IMHO a marriage is the single most important relationship you willingly enter into.

I don’t think we generally realize it’s importance and the wide implications getting married carries. We might remember saying the "I do" and all that, but we don’t remember having previously signed the wedding forms, and I doubt anyone read the small print on that form. The forms that actually count a lot more than the matching tuxedo’s, the white dress and the cake. Those forms state that we understand what we are entering, the legal implications and all that.
In most Western cultures the marriage itself is a Civil contract or union. Most of us have that contract preformed and blessed in a church or place of worship, and our religion might control a lot on how we view marriage, but at the end of the day – if we divorce or die or whatever – that civil contract is probably what commands who get’s what. This is pretty evident in that the guy who eventually signs off on the divorce settlement is not a priest, mullah or rabbi, but a judge.

We willingly sign those forms, we willingly say "yes" and we willingly remain in a marriage.

That is the core concept IMHO: We choose to be married, and we choose to remain married.

Kids? OK – in a sense we willingly enter into a relationship with them by conceiving them, but there is also a legal obligation we can’t opt out of for providing for them. Even deadbeat runaway dads can be sued for support. Do your job properly as a parent and the goal is that they become self-sufficient and independent people and the relationship changes. Like… that bottom I wiped 30 years ago might listen to my advice on a career change but will act on it’s own decision. That small boy who followed my advice now hopefully listens more to his wife than me.

OK – Leaving a marriage with kids, a mortgage, savings, debts, a dog, cat and hamster isn’t easy. We shouldn’t storm out just because she wants to watch a show while the game is on, or because it’s fish two dinners in a row. Inevitably divorce is a tough and sad decision and shouldn’t be taken lightly, but it’s still a decision that is within our control.
We ALWAYS have a choice of remaining or leaving. I don’t put much value on those that say they had no choice, nor those that state they are only staying until Jr. leaves for college. All my years here and I might possibly remember one out of hundreds that actually came back to share that the minute Jr. left/graduated/empty-nesters they filed. You always have a choice, and if you choose to remain, then at least try to make it worth it. Jr. will be a lot more traumatized by the frost between his parents and thinking that’s what a relationship should look like, than by having to share a room with a sibling or stop going to piano-lessons for a couple of year.

If you decide to remain… Then keep in mind the person you say you don’t respect, love or trust is also the person who gets to decide if your dementia requires go get placed in a home. The same person that gets to decide if the medical staff should flip the switch on life-support, or start giving you all those morphine injections. Same person that has equal say on all your major financial decisions. Same person as legally owns half of what you think you own.
Imagine being that integrated into someone that you mentally hate… or at best tolerate…

It always amuses me that some of the most hardcore BTW posters here over the years have been still married with their wayward spouse, and they will always have some great excuse as to why they couldn’t follow the advice they give others…

With that in mind…
The questions and doubts asked are normal and unavoidable. The solution is finding answers.

Like… Of course there are doubts about why they are still with you. One way to ease those doubts is by having clear paths to EITHER route out of infidelity on the table: Both you and your spouse CAN divorce. If the real concern is "the kids" then you jointly figure out the best way of dealing with the impact of divorce on them. If the real concern is finances, you jointly figure out how to make the equation work once divorced. Can’t afford to keep the house? As if moving house will be the biggest change for the kids post-divorce…

When divorce is a real and open option but you both individually decide not to pursue it… well… at least your spouse isn’t there for financial reasons or stability or whatever else you fear. They are there because they WANT to be there.
Just like you.

Many fall into the trap that R is simply dealing with the infidelity when in fact that’s only the first step.
We all here tend to agree that infidelity is never the fault of the betrayed spouse. Lets be clear on that. That the condition of the relationship is NEVER a reason or excuse for the WS to cheat.
That doesn’t mean that to reconcile after infidelity we BS don’t need to do work…
We need to reestablish within ourselves a new form to create trust (trust-but-verify) because we will go insane if we think our spouse is cheating each and every time they are ten minutes late.
We need to establish ways that we are feeling secure that our spouse feels safe to talk to us about ANYTHING – just like we feel safe to talk to them.
We need to create an emotional connection that we believe and see is real.
We need to realize that all relationships need feeding and tending to, and both be willing to do that work.

We need to sit down at regular instances maybe 2-3 times a year alone – with ourselves – and think "Is this marriage where I want to be? Is it good? Is it better or worse since my last sit-down? What can I do to improve it? Do I want to improve it or do I want to get out?". We can’t allow ourselves to sell US short on the most important commodity we have – TIME.
Your marriage might be at an all-time low on d-day and probably the next months or even years. But if you haven’t seen an improvement in both YOUR attitude and stance, as well as your then-formerly-wayward-spouse… then R isn’t for you. You are at best in limbo, disguised as R simply because you aren’t at each other’s throats and occasionally have sex.

I’m hoping that when the day comes for me to leave this existence that it’s something like a random meteor crashing onto my bedroom, taking both of us. I hope that’s way into the future. But if my wife ever has to take a decision on end-of-life treatment for me, I hope it will be from a position of care and love rather than some sense of relief.

As always @Bigger, very well stated. There is a lot here that I deeply agree with, especially your point that marriage is a choice we continually make, not just a ceremony we once participated in. I also strongly agree that reconciliation only has value when both people freely choose each other with full awareness that leaving is an option.

Where I differ slightly is on divorce itself.

To me, infidelity fundamentally breaks the vows and the original contract. The marriage that existed before the affair is already dead whether papers are filed or not. Because of that, I personally see divorce as the logical first step after betrayal, not necessarily the end of the relationship, but the formal acknowledgment that the original marriage was destroyed.

I have filed. I will divorce. And yet I fully plan on reconciliation.

That probably sounds contradictory to some people, but for me it is actually the clearest and most honest path possible. I don’t want reconciliation built on obligation, fear, sunk cost, legal status, finances, history, or inertia. I want two people standing completely outside the broken contract and consciously choosing one another again anyway.

If we rebuild, then it is not because we remained trapped inside the ruins of the old marriage. It is because, after everything, we both still freely chose to create something new together.

In a strange way, divorce removes the illusion of obligation and leaves only truth behind. What survives after that has a chance to be real. That being said I asked these questions because my logical mind cannot see the how or why yet I suppose.

One small step and day at a time.

What divorce also leads to is the total separation of assets/debts, generally at a cost. If you two are going to do a real divorce with some stated intent of possibly restarting once the judge has signed on the line then we are talking about moving the mortgage off both your names to the one that keeps the house, making arrangements to ensure rights/access to pension, moving names of leases, contracts, cards… Moving deeds, refinancing, legal costs…
Look up the average cost of a divorce in the US and you get numbers from 8k to 20k per person.

Your wife signs all hers away in the belief it’s only a formality and you two will remarry in the courtroom beside the divorce court… The judge is likely to refuse to sign due to it being too one-sided.

If the intention is to remarry same person and to use the divorce as a reset function… Possibly a prenup (1k) and 15k in therapy makes more sense.

In many ways I tend to remove the romanticism of marriage. Yes – it should be based on love and you definitely shouldn’t marry someone because it makes sound business sense. Care, respect and admiration are required too. In a combination labeled "love". But I do think that often we romanticize divorce on this site. R and D both require a lot of work and cost pain – and eventually might lead to happiness.

All in all it is costing us $2900.00 CAD, house transferred to my name, remortgaged and her paid 50% of the equity. No contest divorce, and I want nothing from her and she nothing from me. We agreed to 50% custody if it goes to that and was a very amicable process thus far.

We did this too— it really wasn’t hard (though I didn’t want to get a divorce when we were doing it—- he wasn’t offering the chance for reconciliation afterwards either —-we were getting a divorce period) and it was amicable in terms of what we were agreeing to.

We never ended up filing, but it gave peace of mind. We looked into the post-nup and it was a joke in our state. They are really hard to get an attorney to write because they are not enforceable here and in many other states, it’s often a waste of money.

We eventually burned the papers, many years later. I am not saying that’s what you should do but the exercise itself was well worth it for many reasons.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:10 PM, Friday, May 15th]

I know this probably sounds petty. Maybe even vindictive. But one of the things I struggle with deeply is the feeling that there are no real consequences for her actions if we reconcile.

Not revenge. Not punishment. Consequences.

This marriage used to be something I was profoundly proud of. Fifteen years meant something to me. It represented loyalty, safety, endurance, shared history, commitment, sacrifice, and love. I wore it internally like a badge of honor. Not because we were perfect, but because I believed what we had was real and protected.

Now? I don’t feel pride when I think about our marriage. I feel grief. Humiliation. Loss. Confusion. The foundation underneath those fifteen years cracked in a way I cannot un-know.

And yet externally, nothing changes for her.

People still see the long marriage. People still see the family. People still see the image. People still assume the story.

She still gets the social pride of "15 years married," while I quietly carry the knowledge of what those years actually contained. There’s something deeply isolating about watching someone continue to receive the public benefits of a marriage that privately devastated you.

I think part of what bothers me is that betrayal creates this bizarre imbalance where the betrayed spouse loses innocence, security, identity, memories, self-worth, and often pride in the relationship itself… while the wayward spouse can sometimes continue moving through the world largely untouched unless disclosure or separation happens.

Maybe that feeling is unfair. Maybe it’s ego. Maybe it’s pain searching for balance in a situation that can never truly be balanced.

But it’s real.

And I suspect I’m not the only betrayed spouse who has wrestled with the quiet resentment of feeling like they are carrying all the visible and invisible consequences while the person who detonated the marriage still gets to publicly wear it untouched.

What would be appropriate consequences?
Pushups?
Go to bed without dinner?
Self-flagellation?

One of the hard things the BS needs to understand is that there are no "consequences" other than the immense remorse and shame a recovered WS experiences internally – and tries to make amends to the BS for.

If you were to properly divorce (rather than the near-stereotypical-for-Canadians a "nice" divorce) then you could learn that 10 days after signing your wife found a real Italian prince (bestie with Clooney) who whisked her off to his Mediterranean yacht and she’s never been so happy ever before. So even divorce doesn’t guarantee "consequences" as we typically view them.

I may not be explaining myself properly.

When I say "consequences," I do not mean punishment, revenge, humiliation, or wanting her to suffer. That is not what I’m trying to express. What I mean is that I no longer feel pride in this marriage the way I once did, because the meaning of those years changed for me after the affairs. The marriage I was proud of no longer exists in the same form in my mind.

So it creates this strange emotional disconnect for me when she can still publicly wear "15 years married" as a point of pride and accomplishment while privately knowing the vows and exclusivity attached to those years were broken. To me, the consequence is not punishment. The consequence is that the symbolic meaning of the marriage changes.

If I shattered a priceless vase and glued it back together, I may still love it, protect it, and even cherish it again someday. But I would no longer present it as untouched.

That is more what I’m trying to articulate.

I’m not saying she should be shamed publicly. I’m saying I struggle emotionally with the idea that betrayal fundamentally altered what those fifteen years represent, at least for me. Yet every external eye still wishes us a happy fifteenth anniversary and she beams with pride. It kills me inside, but I see what you are saying.

I think you are showing me that it is a me problem that I need to work on because even if I do not intend punishment, that is what it is deep down. I guess looking at it through that perspective changes it a little bit. I think I had an epiphany while writing this out...

I think this too is quite normal, and not petty at all. It’s a very sane reaction actually.

I think in time you may watch and see she does suffer many consequences regardless of the outcome of your marriage. Not because you want to punish her but the consequences of infidelity are often just natural. Sure, she could meet Prince like bigger said but unless she fixes her shit she is going to end up in the same place because people who do these things aren’t wired to only do them to certain people. It isn’t at all about you—-it’s all about her.

Right now everything is fresh, you are suffering immensely. You are truly in the shit end of the stick here and I do not at all mean for the next thing I say to mean you should have any empathy at this point at all. You have been wronged in a very terrible way, and you are not sure you can see a future with her and that is entirely valid and understandable.

But regardless of the outcome of your marriage, eventually I believe you will see that while she creates this loss, she really betrayed her best interests and will likely feel those same losses. And it was really for nothing at all worthwhile in the process. And as a newer bs that’s the hardest part of all to know nothing at all was gained in the situation. It’s losses for all involved.

The first year in my opinion is all recovery. No real reconciliation can begin until healing has happened on both sides. If she choses to truly do that work, she is going to be devastated by what she looks back and sees. She is going to wrestle with how she couldn’t see it earlier and all the things she could have had if she had appreciated and respected them. Owning the worst parts of yourself and all the damage you caused to the person who was supposed to be the one you loved most of all, the one you were supposed to provide a safe space for, it’s a reckoning that you can’t yet imagine until you see it.

If she doesn’t do the work on herself the idea of reconciliation will never even begin. And she will still have a hard long climb to grapple with being the one to break up her family and losing a man who was so devoted to her. Thats a more rare thing than you might think- you are the prize to be won in the situation. Avery good man with deep values and emotional maturity and respect for himself—-that is a lightening strike. I watch my single girlfriends and I tell you the people they are meeting are a horror show.

She has turned an easy life into a hard one for the foreseeable future.

So I don’t expect you to relate to this today, but I think one day you will. You don’t know how great you are doing, you feel petty and judge the hard thoughts because that is truly how good you are. And after you work through these stages of grief you will be able to hold your head high that you were the kind of husband who loved the way you did, upholding your dignity, self respect and values.

But first, these are the feelings you should be having. These are the ones that will bring you clarity. No one should go directly into reconciliation—it truly takes time for both people to get their equilibrium and start to heal. If she is rocked to her core by what she has done and digs in with all her might, you maybe surprised how that changes for you. And if she doesn’t, your head will never turn for her—-and that’s a much better place to start from than many others do. They have to heal even to get to that place.

Keep writing, it’s cathartic, and the way you write is providing many other bs’s with a way to voice the hat they are going through.

Someone wiser than me said something a long time ago that I think emphasizes what the experience of reconciliation must be—and I try not to butcher this—-it’s the process in which the ws gets down in the floor with the bs. It’s when they suffer alongside of them in every way and do everything in their power to fix the things within themselves to make sure that it is evident this will never happen again.

And if that’s not what happens, run like a motherfucker because you deserve better. You already deserve better, but I understand giving things a chance to settle and taking some time to see how things go. I have a feeling when that clarity comes you will have no problem doing so.

You feel like a mess but you are navigating this as if you aren’t. You are strong enough to do the best thing for you and in my book this doesn’t make you a fool or a chimp or whatever you feel like at the moment.

Feeling all the feelings is the right path towards healing. The outcome of this relationship may be uncertain for a while, but you are going to land on your feet no matter what. I, and the others here KNOW that just by reading what you are writing. Infidelity isn’t fair. There are no scales of justice. It eventually comes down to either redemption and grace or the end of the relationship.

I believe that when the bs is willing to walk a hard line, that when the ws really rises to the occasion to win them back over after a sustained period of time, that earn back is where you will be able to find the grace to balance the scales because there is no such thing as justice in these things.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:55 PM, Friday, May 15th]

FYI my H will tell you he has deep regrets about his past affairs.

He worries I will now D him.

While on the outside it all looks wonderful, internally he’s suffering and worries about things he never used to.

Me, on the other hand, worry about nothing.

If he up and decided to D me tomorrow, I’d be hurt and upset. However I know I would survive it as I already have survived two affairs of his.

Life goes on. IMO I have to make myself happy. No one can do that for me. My H can only add to my happiness.

And for every second I "what if" myself or look at the unfairness of affairs, it allows the cheaters to steal from me yet again. And I just don’t want to remain stuck there.

There's nothing petty about any of this. I know exactly how you feel because I felt the exact same way. I've read from countless betrayed spouses who have expressed similar feelings and sentiments.

It took me about a year and a half to start to understand something I think is true about reconciliation. On the road to R the WS has the more difficult journey.

As a betrayed spouse, we have a mountain of healing to climb. The betrayal of infidelity is a profound shock and a severe emotional and psychological trauma. It hits hard and it hits deep. It takes years to process through a myriad of truly difficult and unsettling issues, the most difficult of which is the "F-word"; forgiveness.

Now, I encourage every BS in R to forget the word forgiveness even exists. This is the last thing you have to worry about for a very, very long time.

For a wayward spouse, on the other hand, who is truly remorseful and willing to do whatever it takes to reconcile, earning that forgiveness is a central preoccupation. My ex-wife asked me to forgive her almost immediately (within days of discovery).

It took me about a year and a half to start feeling empathy for my ex-wife. I'd never, ever want to feel the tremendous amount of guilt and shame with which she struggled. I'd never want to feel obligated to prove myself worthy of reconciliation the way she did. I'd never want to go through life feeling like a fraud in front of our friends and family.

There are consequences for a wayward spouse. It's difficult, if not impossible, for a betrayed spouse to understand and appreciate when we're still so completely overwhelmed with our own pain, doubts and fears.

Hopefully, your WW will have the courage, patience, resilience and fortitude to do the work that reconciliation requires. She has her own mountain to climb.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my ramblings, I truly appreciate it. It has pulled me off the proverbial edge more than a few times. I feel sometimes I can be contradictory but it helps to sort through with others (both WS and BS).

I do not want to make it seem as though I want her to hurt or be in pain in anyway, even if a prince comes and gives her what she wants and she is happy, I would genuinely be happy for her. There are tough conversations when I tell her how I truly feel, at the moment at least, then I feel horrible to my soul seeing the look of hurt in her eyes.

I know I am responsible for my own happiness and I find it hard letting her be responsible for her own. I have always worked hard to make her happy, even though I never did I guess. That is hard for me as I have always been the strong one to pull her off the ledge, calm and support her, and show her that she is loved every day. I know I may have been over working, in part allowing her to remain stuck, but now she has to stand. I told her last night "I need you to be the strong one now, at least for a while. My shoulders are broken and knees have given out."

I hope she heard me, really heard what I was saying.

I hope she did too. And for the record—

-I don’t read it as you want her to suffer. I read it as you are experiencing so much loss and feel alone in that. She isn’t traumatized in the same way- it’s a very lonely place.

-I do not think it is you failed to make her happy. I do not think you have failed at all. I am a ws, so I understand that the infidelity is completely on her. It’s not that I think she is evil anymore than I think myself to be evil. But she made these choices based on some skewed ways of thinking, coping, being that has to be addressed. When I say it would have been the same with the prince it’s because the flaws that lead to cheating has nothing to do with the bs. I believe this to my core.

-I am glad you are asking for what you need.

No one who has been where you are thinks of this as you want her to suffer or you want her punished or any of those things. You are grappling with a very unique and intense pain and living with the person who inflicted it.l and the love is still there because it doesn’t go away the instant this all occurs, it’s why the shame and humiliation is so deep -you feel like your heart is betraying you in the process.

That’s a very hard thing to navigate. You are entitled to have "ugly thoughts and feelings"—-they are normal and part of the process. Like I said before true to yourself and how you feel, that’s the best path towards healing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:42 PM, Friday, May 15th]