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I woke up on the couch with her laying next to me. I just felt empty, no emotion.

I would calmly but sternly tell her she’s lost the right & privilege to sleep next to you. It should be HER on the couch, not you by the way.

Ark,

Re. this:

Yeah unfortunately I treated her amazingly. I wish I treated her bad to have something to blame this on, that’s one of my big frustrations.

You should not get bogged down thinking that anyone 'deserves' to get cheated on. Nobody does. People cheat because they want to, regardless of how they are treated in a relationship. And cheating is never an appropriate response to problems within a relationship, because it solves nothing, and adds more problems.

Almost everything your wife has said and done since you discovered her affair has rung alarm bells with people here. To put it politely, she has issues with honesty and integrity, commitment, and a lot of what she has said and done has been manipulative and verging on psychological abuse. That did not come from you; it was in her all along, just waiting to manifest itself. Due to her personality/character issues, she was a ticking time bomb, and she would have cheated no matter how she was treated, or who she was with.

Given your past concerns that she may have been cheating, it suggests that you sensed there was something 'off' about her long before the affair, and that she did not make you feel secure. And you were proven right. There was, and there is, nothing you did or could do to change her. And going by her statements that there is nothing IC could do for her - which suggests she thinks she is perfect! - she is not going to change (or even think about changing) any time soon.

If she believes she is perfect and in no need of improvement, the only thing you can do for yourself is let her go, or settle for a life of more manipulation and betrayal, until you burn out ten or fifteen years from now. I would not recommend the latter choice, because nobody should sacrifice their life that way.

The sad thing - amongst many - is that your wife will blame everyone and everything but herself for her choices and actions, and because of that, she is unlikely to ever be safe life partner for anyone. You, on the other hand, are in the prime of your life, and while this sounds like a cliche, there are plenty of women out there who will do a better job of appreciating you than your wife did.

Like today, texting me "too bad you didn’t trust me when I was a faithful, loyal, loving wife". This is in reference to when we had a huge fight about her marks on her back.

There's the old saying "Trust is a fragile thing". That's not that accurate. Actually, trust is a useless thing... until it has been tested.

She was tested and failed spectacularly. She didn't confess, she was discovered. She didn't stop herself for eleven months. She got pregnant when she was having sex with two men, so she had absolutely no idea who the father was, yet didn't have any qualms about continuing the pregnancy with zero forethought to just how badly this could have ended up.

At this stage, I think you were right about the scratches. If your gut was telling you something was wrong then, I'd trust your gut over your wife's trustworthiness. I think she was messing around then.

I am so glad to hear that you are taking steps to get yourself out of this mess OP. Please make it a point to keep an extra close eye on your 8-year-old especially, she has to be really confused about what is happening and why.

Your WW's text making a connection between her current affair and whatever past fights you and she may have had, is just simply crazy thinking and probably very illuminating as to how she really sees the world. (And...where did she say she got those scratch marks again?) But just as everyone was telling you to be aware that your actions will be documented, the reverse can also be true: DO make a point of keeping these texts, they may be helpful when it comes to custody etc.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:49 PM, Wednesday, November 10th]

I know this is incredibly painful for you, but your WW has played you since this all started. I want you to seriously consider protecting yourself from this point forward. That means keeping a VAR on yourself. No more sex, no more intimacy.
Draw firm and clear boundaries. Do not name call, do not stir the pot, just sit back and grey rock this sucker.

She clearly isn't remorseful. She is most likely back in contact with the AP in one way or another, and you need to be prepared for her to manipulate the situation, rewrite the marital history, and attempt to make you out to be the bad guy, and of course she cheated, anyone would in her circumstances. Those "friends" of hers are just as dangerous. Lock down the social media for a while. No need to post.
Contact close real friends. Focus on staying healthy and taking care of the kiddos, because she may just be one of these moms that decides to walk away from it all. You need to be the safe, sane place for your kids.

She fucked up and understands that she could never cheat again, or betray me in anyway.

The bold statement is just plain minimizing bullshit. I used to not hate the term mistake since it includes things like "it's a strategic mistake to go to war in Russia". I got convinced in that thread the connotation of mistake or fuck up, especially out of the mouth of a wayward is very important since it is minimization.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/646948/the-war-on-the-term-mistake/

Aside from the bold part, the fact that she did it before proves this is a useless promise.

You know, at some point I complained that my wife *wouldn't* at least *promise* me this. She was very real with me, "I promised before to be faithful but cheated on you. How on earth could I promise you that now?" Or something to that effect, even though what I was looking for was reassurance.

Sometimes there isn't a "right" thing for a WS to say since both answers have unsatisfactory elements.

That said, IC should help her understand what is wrong inside her that let her decide (not make a mistake) to be unfaithful, and how her thought process has now changed so that she won't betray you again. The mere experience of being caught isn't enough.

She’s been openly reading about separation on her computer so I can see. It’s almost as if she’d rather taunt me with doing that, versus actually working on keeping my triggers at bay.

Like today, texting me "too bad you didn’t trust me when I was a faithful, loyal, loving wife". This is in reference to when we had a huge fight about her marks on her back.

Yeah... she might as well be holding up a cartoon sign like Wile E. Coyote, saying "I don't get it". She's had a little bit of time now to think about what she did, so the fact that this incident is taking up any headspace at all isn't a good sign. Don't get me wrong, it typically takes TIME for a WS to break through all the convoluted lie they told themselves while doing the mental gymnastics that go into making the choice to cheat. I've seen many WS reference the six-month mark, but that's not written in stone. Bottom line though.. WW is not getting it. When taken in with the fact that she's also not willing to give you the space you need, separation might be the best answer. Just bear in mind that the longer a separation persists, the more likely it is to become permanent. This might not be a bad thing in your case, since you are currently leaning toward D, but I do like to put that little factoid out there.

She’s been openly reading about separation on her computer so I can see. It’s almost as if she’d rather taunt me with doing that, versus actually working on keeping my triggers at bay.

There is an element of retaining control that colors some of your WW's actions.

You catch her cheating, and she tells you that if you even think of cheating, she will divorce you.

She knows you may well be considering separation and divorce, so she goes out of her way to let you know she is researching the subject, because she may want to separate from you.

It is like that classic scenario where someone gets fired from a job, and they shout in their boss's face, "You can't fire me, because I quit".

It is possible that her behaviour is a form of avoidance/denial, and if you serve her with papers, and reality hits, she may implode.

[This message edited by M1965 at 9:04 PM, Thursday, November 11th]

I woke up on the couch with her laying next to me. I just felt empty, no emotion. It was odd. I’d rather feel no emotions than being heated all the time

There is a saying that the opposite of love is not hate, but rather it's indifference. To show love and hate means that there is an emotional attachment to that person - they are both emotions after all and if someone cares enough to love someone, they can also care enough to hate them as well.

But indifference shows that the emotional attachment has gone. Sure you may still have empathy and caring but these are more a personality trait than an emotion. We can all be caring and empathetic towards strangers if that is part of who we are and it's just a side to our personality. You wish no harm to come to her because of who she was to you, and who she is as a co-parent, but this comment shows that when it comes to any form of emotional attachment, it's gone like the morning mist on a warm summers day.

To get to that "indifference" is often the goal for anyone wanting to break apart from someone that they once had an emotional attachment to. Some achieve it through things like the 180 and to some it just comes naturally as the minds mental defense against the tumult of emotions that it faces. The emotional side of you towards her has basically shut down.

I guess at this point the salient question is, do you want it to ever come back? Can it ever possibly come back?

Time will tell but as a defense mechanism to help you get through this, it is a winning one.

It's beyond the "I'm in love with you but not in love you" stage and into the realm of "I care enough about you to not see you get hurt, but if its a choice between hurting me and hurting you, I'll be choosing me from now on."

[This message edited by medieval at 11:29 PM, Thursday, November 11th]

Yeah unfortunately I treated her amazingly. I wish I treated her bad to have something to blame this on, that’s one of my big frustrations.

This is why she needs counseling if you need to point her to something. Tell her it is because she has her value system all messed up. She thought her needs out weighed yours and until she can prove that is fixed and explain why that ever was flipped, you aren't reconciling. She says she realizes NOW she can't cheat again, but what allowed her to cheat before? Why didn't she see it as wrong? why wasn't she worried about the pain she was inflicting on you? That should be the focus of her counseling as well.

I get you sleeping on the couch, but I would kick her off you when you wake up, because she is the one who drove you to the couch. She should see a little bit of your anger there. You are setting boundaries by leaving the bedroom, she doesn't get to choose when those boundaries get crossed.

I am so sorry your wife blew up your family like this. It truly breaks me heart to read about what she did. What your wife did is so much worse than just having a long term affair. To get pregnant during the affair continue the affair thinking it was for her affair partner and having you raise another man child. This is another level of betrayal. To top it off thinking, well maybe it could be yours!

I just think something is missing here. I'm sure you left some details out which is understandable. What I mean is for this level of betrayal there must have been some type of red flags over the years. It's just so damn hard to believe a loving caring wife and mother can suddenly be capable of this level of betrayal. And I know there is a good chance I am wrong about this but it is just so damn heartbreaking that a good caring person one minute can be capable of this type of betrayal the very next minute.

However, there is one thing I know for sure. There is no way that she really loves you. She most likely understands the importance of security and this is why she is scrambling so much for you to forgive her. Also she is probably worried more about her image and reputation. I believe an affair can happen when someone is in love but this isn't what you are dealing with. It's so much worse.

In the end this is what I'd be looking for in order to decide weather or not to attempt to reconcile. Is she in love with me? Ark, I don't think she loves you.

[This message edited by Browsing41 at 2:54 AM, Friday, November 12th]

What I mean is for this level of betrayal there must have been some type of red flags

Not necessarily.

Many of us here were totally blindsided. We were paying attention and were still totally blindsided.

When you hear these stories on the sidelines, they're so disturbing, that you want there to be Red Flags. You want to find reasons. We want these things to help make us feel safe, like this can never happen to ME because I'm paying attention. I'll take preventive action if I begin to see Red Flags. I'll "Affair Proof" my marriage to insure this never happens to me.

But many-most, affairs don't manifest this way. They literally blindside trusting BS's who haven't been offered a perceptible clue as to what is unfolding.

Waywards do such an incredible job of containment and compartmentalization they, in retrospect, barely recognize their affairing selves. They literally create an alternative reality that sustains the affair. Then, come home to their families and transform into their domestic character.

That's what happened to me. Even in retrospect, looking back to see if I must have missed something, couldn't find anything perceptible-actionable.

It's mind blowing. It's absolutely mind blowing-disturbing. Cheating seemed so out of character for my Christian, Mom-of-the-year, highly principled and pragmatic, career driven, forward thinking, educated, seemingly content happy, loving, affectionate wife of 22 years.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 6:56 PM, Friday, November 12th]

Red flags?

Not necessarily, no. Other than some lies, and the back marks. Always on her phone probably was the biggest. Even my 8 year old would complain.

Thinking back, did she do things for me? No. Did she spoil me? No.

Could that be a red flag? Absolutely. But I was caught up in moving our family forward so I put my needs to the side I guess. Did I verbally tell her I was sick of feeling left out of her important list? Yes. But it was never taken care of.

she say she wants to be a better wife and spoil me to no end. But I’m done.

Last night I wanted to leave the house. I was heated, so I decided to walk away. Around 1:30 in the morning I was just going to head to my office and crash there. So what does a "good wife" do? Oh, threaten me she no longer wants to be with me. And she can’t handle this. So I called her bluff. I said that’s fine, we can speak with the lawyer on Monday.

Today she’s back to "I need you" but, not before her giving me shit about her birthday. Constantly telling me I never wished her a happy birthday. Mind you, she was fucking another man during my birthday in June. And also happened to ruin my 8 year olds birthday (the day I found out about the affair).

She’s still incredibly self centered and selfish. Here is a text she sent me: "If you don’t love me anymore do us a favor & end this. I can’t be unloved like this any longer..

Literally the fact you wouldn’t even eat lunch with me on my fucking birthday."

Yeah… let me focus on you because of your birthday I’ll ignore how ruthless your affair was.

No thanks.

Ark, you got to understand what is happening here. Your wife is not remorseful. She is not even regretful. She doesn't care about your pain. She instead is right now doing everything she can to get CONTROL of the situation.

The original plan on her part was to keep the affair hidden and ongoing. When you found out, her plan instead became to get you to stay and rugsweep. Lovebombing you at Halloween didn't work though. Neither did feigning a semblance of actual remorse. So now, as it is appearing more and more likely that she cannot get you to stay and rugsweep after all, she is now trying to control THE NARRATIVE. She is trying to spin that the affair was because you were too jealous. And that the divorce is HER decision, because you don't love her anymore i.e., you were the one who betrayed YOUR vows to love her to the end of your lives. And as seen earlier in this thread, that you are somehow the bad guy for calling her names and going on SM. And now, for not acknowledging her birthday. FFS!

I'd be very careful engaging with your WW, I would not put a false DV charge on you, below her.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:22 PM, Friday, November 12th]

Ark, I don't know if it's been said before, but I did want to point it out:

He is going to write me up a postnuptial agreement, that my wife has agreed to sign. She has also agreed to do everything else I’ve asked. She’s at a point of jump and she says how high.

My attorney told me that in most states, post nuptials aren't really worth much because a cheating spouse can always claim they signed it "under duress."

In a perverse legal twist, the self-induced stress they caused by cheating on their faithful spouses count as "duress."

Anyway something you may want to ask about a bit more because of how the law works in most states.

"If you don’t love me anymore do us a favor & end this. I can’t be unloved like this any longer..

Literally the fact you wouldn’t even eat lunch with me on my fucking birthday."

Your WW has a very toxic personality. This is classic DARVO, the hallmark of a narcissist. It's no fun being married to a narcissist. They are emotional vampires.

A lot of us spotted it, and now she continues to prove it out. I would tread very carefully here. But yes, move forward as swiftly as you can with divorce from her. She's not worth any more of your life.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:15 PM, Friday, November 12th]

Constantly telling me I never wished her a happy birthday. Mind you, she was fucking another man during my birthday in June. And also happened to ruin my 8 year olds birthday (the day I found out about the affair).

She’s still incredibly self centered and selfish. Here is a text she sent me: "If you don’t love me anymore do us a favor & end this. I can’t be unloved like this any longer..

Literally the fact you wouldn’t even eat lunch with me on my fucking birthday."

Ark,

I am sorry that you are being subjected to this kind of treatment. It is beyond mind-blowing that anyone who has done what she did could talk to the spouse she betrayed in this way.

Recently she said that she believed that individual counseling could do nothing for her. I think she was accidentally being more honest than she intended to be. She does not need an individual counselor; she needs a clinical psychologist with experience of dealing with personality disorders. If she can complain at you for not making her feel loved after what she has done to you, something is wrong with her.

It is going to be incredibly challenging to build anything approaching a happy future on what she reveals about herself every time she opens her mouth or texts you.

You shouldn't wait a second to file for divorce. This is the best thing you can do for yourself and your kids.

Thought I’d also share this text with you guys. She sent this to me today.

She originally was going to allow her friends to take her out to lunch or dinner. Which I was disgusted. Who goes and celebrates their birthday 45 days after a INSANE affair? I told her she should be at home with her daughters showing them she’s a good mom.

So today she was guilt tripping me by saying how she canceled her lunch with "her friends that love her" to be alone, since I wouldn’t eat with her.

I can CLEARLY see what she is trying to do to me.

"I just moved away from the sushi bar at in the restaurant bc the guys at the bar were trying to talk to me.

One said no way that’s your baby.. & I moved away.

Seriously if you want to be with me stop withholding love from me as a punishment bc it going to truly cause me to stop doing my part & we will get divorced. I don’t want that but what your doing is not helping & it TAKES TWO to keep this together"

"I just moved away from the sushi bar at in the restaurant bc the guys at the bar were trying to talk to me.

One said no way that’s your baby.. & I moved away.

Seriously if you want to be with me stop withholding love from me as a punishment bc it going to truly cause me to stop doing my part & we will get divorced. I don’t want that but what your doing is not helping & it TAKES TWO to keep this together"

But only one to tear it apart. And that's what she did.

I'm going to be really frank with you right now... there is NO WAY that I would ever have tolerated any argument or even negotiation about engaging in R. This is NOT the response I would expect to see from a truly remorseful WS. When a WS is really remorseful, they are HORRIFIED at what they've done. They're not peeved to be missing play dates or threatening to stop doing their part if their demands aren't met. This is NOT what remorse looks like. I just can't appreciate the tone here. She leads with "hey, I'm so hot that other guys are looking at me", so one can't fail to see the inference that if you don't step up there are other options". I'm aghast. I can't think of any explanation for that commentary which would allow us to give her the benefit of the doubt. It's just shockingly stupid to try to gin up jealousy from a betrayed spouse and then use the word "divorce" as a threat.

I do think your earlier inclination toward separation might be the best way to go. It would most likely help to clarify your thoughts. I expect that the crocodile tears and snot-bubbled promises you've had so far may have made it look like she's genuinely contrite. But then you get glimpses of this entitled attitude she's got going on just underneath the radar and you can't know what to believe. Couple that with her failure to give you the space you need (read empathize with your feelings) and separating for awhile might clarify your mind. She'll either prove that she is a legitimate candidate for R, or she'll prove definitively that a D decision is inevitable.

Please don't get me wrong. People have come back from worse. Some WS's take a few months to pull their heads out of their hindquarters and then they catch on and catch up. Could be your WW is a late bloomer in that respect. Right now though, I think she's buffaloing you.

Your WW has shown you who she really is; you should believe her.

It is true that many waywards take a long time to understand what they've done and understand how they can help their BS. But your WW does seem pretty tightly wrapped around her own center of gravity. Has she read even one thing about the trauma a betrayal of this magnitude causes? It sure doesn't look that way. Sad doesn't begin to describe it.