SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have had time to ponder and reread.

Revenger - I have thought that for a while, he won’t be satisfied anywhere as he’s looking for the impossible. A specific hug or a certain face or a certain word doesn’t mean I love him more. I loved him. I really loved him. I did my best. I’m not perfect. But it was genuine. Could we have made it better - hell yes. But I always believed it would get easier as the kids grew.

Superesse - yes he was a sulky child and teenager. He has never stopped. But he hid built up resentments, yet also apparently resented me when I got cross about things and brought them up. Hence his feelings of being unsafe. I tend to get angry, say my piece and move on quickly. I am not a sulker. My way may not be the best way and Ive worked on it. I can think very quickly on my feet too - which he has mentioned he finds hard. It’s likely a skill I have developed from my past.

I think the Unsafe comments are also a bit lame in this context. I have previously been in a very abusive, violent, relationship. I felt unsafe (for my life).

Bluer - yes you may have a very good point there. That statement gets brought up very regularly. You said I’m not partner material.

Now this could be him giving up.

Or it could be sulky why should I bother it’s not getting me what I want. Or why should I bother you hate me anyway.

I may have hit a raw nerve. It’s clearly something he has replayed and is resentful over.

Personally I’d prove me wrong but I’m quite bloody minded.

Pogre (sorry if I spelt that wrong)

I would say "no, but it's definitely one of the worst things that can happen in a marriage relationship..."

Yes I’ve said similar. I’ve also said he could have brought up the issues. He could have kept his values and dignity and separated. But he chose to betray himself, me and his marriage and family by cheating.

He had choices that were valid. Talk to me, if he was still unhappy then Divorce. Talk then Suggest counselling. Put up and live with it.

Cheat - and betray your own values - and damage your marriage and family - strange option. Become a liar. If we split he will be asked ‘why did you split up’.

A fair few good options will run a mile at the truth. So it’s likely you have to continue the lie to date or accept the people who are okay dating cheaters. So to me cheating is a Really odd choice to make if you aren’t happy. Make future relationships harder. That also affects the children.

Better to split and move on with good feeling and dignity.

Cooley2here

Wanting to feel needed.
Highly sensitive to criticism.
Hold grudges.
Feels slighted over things I would have forgotten about by the next day. (Not that I’m right)

I’ve looked at the terms you have listed. I’m not sure he fits the description. But I believe these are the obvious issues.

But he blames me for not making him feel secure. I have just remembered When I caught him he suggested we got a paternity test on our children - although it was heartbreakingly shocking - I said yep fine. As I said I don’t hold grudges.

Following his counselling he and his therapist suggested I was a narcissist, his therapist had never met me. Now I’m happy to be self critical but that made me chuckle to be honest. I didn’t even bother to defend myself. It was very odd. Especially as his counsellor knew he was getting online ego kibbles from a hidden person! I certainly don’t need smoke blowing up my behind from the dunny. I can see why he struggles to go back - however I do think he was using counselling for validation - he admitted this at one point.

I think he had got himself into a mess. Reading strange material online. Demonising me. Blaming me for his poor choices. Drinking too much and hiding it. He was clearly in a bad place.

Any mention of drinking by me was taken as criticism and he was defensive. I knew he was hiding alcohol. And I stopped mentioning it as I was seen as anti fun and he was unpleasant. I’d get upset because I cared. He saw it as me being controlling. I missed us having fun.

The more I look back the more I think I tolerated too much.

I’d like to have something better but that may now be for the children. I won’t start a new relationship - his devious nature means I do not want a new partner in my house with my children ever. They are too precious to me. This situation I am in is dull.

But increasingly I’m thinking why bother. Its taken me a while but I can feel I’m checking out.

One more thought-

He said he really thought we loved each other enough to fix this.

I’m not sure if that relates to before or after getting caught. He certainly didn’t consider the depth of what would happen. And how it would destroy so many aspects of the relationship - from rings, to memories, to gifts and cards, to words, to feelings, to beliefs, past, present and future. But I think the destruction and trickle truth and realisations can be summarised by one line in a song.

‘I don’t love you, like I loved you yesterday’.

And those lyrics no longer make me cry.

He said he really thought we loved each other enough to fix this.

Well, there wasn’t enough love to stop him from making the choices he made.

I also discovered, love wasn’t going to be enough to save our M either.

I absolutely think love is awesome and important, but it is the actions of love versus any kind of vibe or feeling about someone.

After infidelity, actions are EVERYTHING.

Show me, don’t tell me.

Help me, don’t sell me.

The weirdest aspect of trying to rebuild after an A, is BOTH partners need to feel safe to be vulnerable, even the person who caused all the damage.

That, to me, is a big reason R is so difficult.

A WS has to be willing to be vulnerable first, and that isn’t easy. A WS who knows they may or may not deserve a last chance has to risk going all in and it may not be enough.

I think my R had a chance because my wife took the lead on her own work AND the lead in helping repair the relationship.

After a couple YEARS of her consistent actions, I started to believe her — and that’s when the love can help and be a part of the new deal.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 6:57 PM, Wednesday, June 18th]

Thanks oldwounds.

I agree that love isn’t enough and have told him as such. He hates me talking in the past tense but I struggle to lie and pretend. I don’t like feelng fake.

I just read about an elderly couple who had been together 70 years. I’d have loved him until the end of time. I’d have worked on making it better, the best in fact. I’m not stupid and I never wanted any of us to be unhappy. I may have needed time to think or ponder but ill try most things. And I’ll give things a good go.

Thanks everyone

Abcd89-

I agree that love isn’t enough and have told him as such. He hates me talking in the past tense but I struggle to lie and pretend. I don’t like feelng fake.

There are very few positive things about the Hell of infidelity, but for me, I really, finally, embraced the authentic me.

So, in a sense, how you’re standing up for you and not willing to bend or break on the need for being you — I find that heroic in the face of the adversity faced.

However things end up, once you get to healing up more, I think you will be great.

You know? You might have a few quirks. I certainly do and everyone does. Not one thing you have ever done, or said, made him cheat. That is all on him.

When I made that list one thing to remember is someone can be on the continuum and not quite have enough issues to be diagnosed. Narcissistic people do not have to be diagnosed to cause emotional harm to others, especially spouses and children. Dependent personality types dither their lives away. They can’t make a decision, and stick to it, to save their lives. Passive aggression is hidden under the total inability to be a responsible adult. So look at his whole life and you will see who he is. It was hidden in plain sight

It took me years to figure out why my husband’s default response is always NO. It made no sense. Even my kids picked up on it. He suffers from hidden anxiety. Since my training and work went over all of this you would think I could have seen it much sooner than I did. Once I figured it out I no longer argue. I just do what needs to get done and he calms down. It’s hidden panic.

He had choices that were valid. Talk to me, if he was still unhappy then Divorce. Talk then Suggest counselling. Put up and live with it.

Cheat - and betray your own values - and damage your marriage and family - strange option. Become a liar. If we split he will be asked ‘why did you split up’.

My situation is different from yours in that it's only been 2 months since d day for me, my WW had a single, short lived affair, and she's putting real effort into trying to make this right and rebuild our marriage. At least so far...

She had a hundred different opportunities to back out of it, and a hundred different options she could have chosen before deciding to cheat on me. Try and talk to me, like really talk to me, slap me upside the head with divorce papers, or even tell me that there's another man ready to give her the attention and affection she's been craving if I don't start coming to the table. Any of those options would have almost certainly given me just as much of a kick in the ass as a full on affair did.

As it is she chose the latter and it almost ended our marriage. After playing pick me for a week or so, I saw that it wasn't working so I started taking steps toward divorce, and it really snapped her out of the fog she was in. She's since done a 180 of her own and is doing a very good job of convincing me she knows she screwed up bad, and that she's willing to do whatever it takes to make amends and show me she's a safe partner again. She no longer blames me for her shitty decisions and is focused solely on helping me (and herself) heal from this devastation and reconcile. Outside of my mood swings and bouts of anger and sorrow, we've been getting along better than we ever have. She's been very understanding of me and not trying to shift blame, tho she did at first.

It's still kind of early for us to know for sure how things are going to end up, but I'm at least hopeful at this point. I'd have a really hard time staying with her if she was doing and saying the things your WH is. It doesn't sound like he's ready to take responsibility for his actions and is trying to shift a chunk of the blame on you. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that. Maybe he'll eventually come around, but right now it doesn't sound like it.

Take my words with a grain of salt tho. I'm still pretty new to all of this so I don't have much personal experience or with talking to others about it, but I do know the pain you're going through amd am sorry you have to deal with it.

Case A) Honest conflict is a situational imbalance of justice or interests that needs to be resolved in truth and sincerity.

The only reason to avoid honest conflict is if one already knows he's in the wrong.

Case B) even facing conflict, let alone navigating it, will be unpleasant, and painful. Thus, some shy away from it whenever they encounter it.

In either case, the solution is to develop the skill to navigate through to a position of moral clarity, even if the situation doesn't change, though usually the moral clarity will elucidate a path that should probably be taken. Without this skill, there is only inevitable stagnation.

In your situation, he's definitely Case A on top of Case B. That's why every time you present any kind of conflict he comes up with, or even seeks out, any reason to divert the subject into something that gives him a perverse permission to avoid going face-to-face with the harm that he's inflicted on everyone, including himself. People who are dug into this position will go their whole lives doggedly deceiving themselves.

He will never emerge from this until he well and truly accepts all the things he did were wrong, that the source and immorality of his decisions are his alone, and that it his responsibility to set things as right as he can. It really is that simple. It's not easy ‐‐ until one becomes well- practiced.

Development of conflict resolution skills are downstream from this, as part of the duty and responsibility that comes with moral clarity.

I hope this might help with something practical, rather than just understanding him a bit better.

-M

‘I don’t love you, like I loved you yesterday’.

And those lyrics no longer make me cry.

This is pretty telling, Abcd. I remember when I got to this point (less than a year ago). It sounds like you're about done and once you make peace with yourself, you will do what you have to. There is a sadness about it but also a great deal of peace that comes with finality.

Thanks Pogre - he was great early days. He sat with me every evening for hours. Did everything I needed. Then I got stronger and I pulled away. That seems to be the problem. We were in a far better place a couple of years ago. He was open and happy to speak and introspective etc. But I got stronger and saw his cheating behaviour as abusive.

He has pulled away over time, maybe because I have. As I got stronger I started seeing his flaws, the ones that allowed him to do this. And now I can’t unsee them. I asked him to write on here , he won’t.

He said he wanted to buy me an anniversary gift (I won’t celebrate our marriage anymore) but he didn’t because I won’t celebrate it. I think in his situation if I wanted to do something I’d have bought a card and or gift and put it in a drawer and said it is there if you wish to open it, I understand if you don’t. But that would be acting on what you believe is right. He is worried about being needy or looking like a loser. But his behaviour, lack of principles and inability to do right by himself is what makes him look like a loser. ‘I’m sorry, I feel I need to mark this occasion, you mean the world to me, thank you for giving us a chance, I’ve popped a little something in the drawer. I’m sorry if it upsets you but please open it if you wish to’.
But no he gives a sulky ‘you say we aren’t married anyway’. It’s about as sexy as a sulky 14 year old who got a telling off for skipping class.

I feel he may be a man of little principles. Happy to fit in and tie himself in knots, while feeling angry and frustrated and resentful about the world around him. And not daring to speak out as it’s uncomfortable to speak out and causes horrid feelings inside. Which he attributes to the person he is speaking to rather than his lack of practice at doing it. He feels the world does things to him but really he’s a passenger.

He would say I’m controlling while he was cheating. Now I leave him to it. Something that needed doing 6 months ago (doesn’t affect me, but before I’d have organised it, sorted it, paid for it too within a week previously) now I have left him to it. It doesn’t affect me at all. Still not sorted but that previously would be me being controlling. It’s fascinating to see it’s just not being done.

His example of no say was I’d choose the holiday. What would actually happen is I’d say I’ve found x and y shall we book? what do you think? Would you like to look through them later? He’d say yes looks good. So I’d book and pay for it. Apparently I should have done that a different way. I’d do this 2/4 times a year. He has equal access to money and could have done the same.

Someone really annoyed me a while back. So I don’t talk to them. They are not a friend or relative. Just someone I see from time to time. I can’t stand this person. So I don’t speak to them. It’s clear I don’t like them and they know why. I am very busy and am not prepared to waste time on them when I have no reason to talk to them. He thinks that’s a bit mean and unnecessary. This would be on the list of why I’m horrid. He used to keep a list of the horrid things I did, including when I was falling apart and suicidal. I’ll never forgive that either. It’s callous and spiteful and sneaky. Yet he thinks me not speaking to an acquaintance is horrid.

Not having a good day today. Thank you for listening. This is cathartic.

I’d do anything to go back and do it all better. As would he I think. But I think it maybe too far gone. And I’m fed up and bored of it. And I don’t see him the same way. And I don’t know if I can overcome that.

It appears as though you are caught in a cycle you can’t undo.

He reacts to your words and you react to his behavior. And it seems as though you can’t stop the cycle so you sink further into unhappiness and anger.

This is not good for you (or him).

I would suggest you consider professional counseling for yourself. I think it’s important for you to heal and not put all of your efforts and energy into a negative relationship. It’s clear you are unhappy at the status quo.

Part of healing from this trauma of infidelity is healing the whole you. Stuff maybe separate from your marriage. Could be stuff from your past.

Once you feel as though you’re in a better place, you maybe can then address your marriage issues. And make some decisions about your future.

I would hate to see you spend another day in your current situation feeling so unhappy and frustrated.

I can say that professional counseling helped me tremendously. I became calmer and happier. I don’t let things bother me — and if they do, I speak up. I’m not a doormat any longer. I now get what I want by changing how I approach things - both professionally and personally.

I hope this helps you.

I am seeing a counsellor. She has asked me to think about what exactly I now want from the sessions. I’m not sure what I want to be honest.

I think I feel a bit lost in that regard. I know my past is tricky and I saw a counsellor for around 6 months when I first found out and prior to finding out as I thought my awfulness was the cause of him wanting out. Now I’ve gone back to the same person.

Mindjob - yes I think you are onto something here. I think he is A and B. He’ll admit what he did was his choice and he is to blame. Yet still says ‘so cheating is the worst thing that can happen in a marriage’. Yet won’t say what is worse. Yet brought up ‘child free time’ as an example of what we didn’t do correctly. I know his heart rate goes up when he feels anxious about a conversation. He’s happier not discussing things. But that doesn’t work for me.

There is nothing I can do to make someone betray their true values (assuming no gun at their head). He couldn’t make me cheat. I don’t cheat for me. I said I wouldn’t so I don’t.

Nothanks - i think it was a long shot that I’d patch things up. I forget things quickly and I don’t remember dates or things very well - that was on my side. I couldn’t tell you any date when I found anything out. I don’t even think of affair season anymore.

But I struggle to overcome seeing someone with no pride or respect for themself.

A friend was cheated on and she was in a bad way. She said she felt she was pathetic and feeble but I saw someone strong who had fought for her family. That had tried the best way she could with the skills she had at the time it happened. And I told her I found that honerable. She never looked pathetic to me. When people are shamed for staying I think that is so misunderstood.

So I still have a lot of pride in myself. I was a good partner. Loyal and dependable and present. I’m glad I managed to form such a strong bond to another person. I do feel sorry for him. I wouldn’t want to be him at all. (I used to think he was amazing and had lovely traits) I thought our different skills complimented each other.

But I said I’d do the best for my kids and maybe that stubbornness is my issue

Just to add when he used to say things which were from having low self esteem I’d tell him he was amazing or great or explain why he was great or wrong with his thoughts. It came from a place of love and it was genuine.

I even struggle to do that now as I struggle to feel fake.

He struggles to communicate and resorts to lying and sneaking to avoid feelings. I struggle to lie to patch things up because I cannot stand the feeling it gives me! Maybe it’s the same feeling.

What you want from the counseling sessions is the feeling of happiness and serenity in your life.

Maybe some coping techniques with the marriage situation. As in when X happens with your spouse you can say Y or do Z.

Maybe some ability to get time and space when needed. Giving yourself Short mental breaks can make a difference in how you react to things.

I would give the counselor some direction and see what they are able to do for you.

I hope this helps you