SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

guvensiz,

Thank you for your post. Some people do not like free speech, and they wish to enforce their personal agenda on other contributors, implying that the life experiences and opinions they contribute are not valid or of equal value to their own, and attempting to prohibit any suggestions about potential ways forward in any direction, because the adults who come to this forum are so easily swayed that they cannot make their own minds up. That is pretty condescending and insulting to people who have already made the decision and taken the action to search online for the opinions and life experiences of other people whose lives have been affected by infidelity.

Attempting to control the contributions and make them all as bland, homogenous, and lacking in any suggested direction will ultimately produce a single one-size-fits-all response to every new poster, followed by a legal disclaimer that may be longer than the advice.

People come to forums like this to interface with other people who have had to deal with infidelity, and to receive a variety of suggestions and advice, from which they can take pick of what feel rights to them, and what does not. I think we would be doing them a real disservice, and defeating the object of this forum, if we insist on filtering and limiting the permissible responses available to visitors to this forum.

Every online forum open to the public has its its resident wise people, its resident idiots, and its resident people pursuing/promoting an agenda. It does not take long to get a 'feel' for any contributor, and I would credit every visitor with enough intelligence to find this forum with enough intelligence to apply their own judgment to the opinions that they find here. If I pass an opinion that someone thinks is garbage or unsuitable to their situation, that is fine. I offer a full money-back guarantee on every lousy suggestion I make that ends up in landfill. It is actually insulting to visitors to this forum to suggest they cannot tell the difference between chicken sh*t and chicken salad, and that contributions must be disinfected and neutralized for their safety.

These forums are well-moderated, and extremes or rudeness/discourtesy/personal insults are not tolerated. If any member posts advice that is biased, mysoginistic/misandrist, advocating criminal action, or otherwise 'eccentric' (to put it nicely), it will soon be blown out of the water by other forum members, many of whom have given huge amounts of their time free of charge for years, because they want to help people going through an experience that they went through. Are all of their opinions and experiences the same? Of course not! It is the variety of experiences and advice that make the SI forums such an incredible free resource to people.

I may beg to differ with, or post alternative opinions to, a post or a poster, but I would never challenge their right to post, or be so rude and disrespectful as to directly question what they have said unless they have done the same to others, or suggest that their opinions and life experiences are not valid. That is what has happened in this thread, and it is a threat to the very purpose of a forum that is intended to give visitors access to the thoughts and experiences of a complete 360 degree range of people who have had to survive infidelity.

Nobody has the right to tell another person that their voice should not be heard, nor to act as a self-appointed arbiter of the worthiness of another person's contribution to these forums, because doing so suggests that the self-appointed arbiter is privy to a higher plain of knowledge, or a level of certainty that does not exist in the real world. In which case, the self-appointed arbiter should be able to suggest a perfect solution, based on the knowledge that gives them the authority to identify as sub-standard the contributions made by lesser mortals, which are guaranteed to pale by comparison to the astoundingly brilliant solutions that they provide.

If they cannot provide astoundingly clever solutions - and this post is wide open to anyone to blow us all away with their superior brilliance - perhaps they should not be taking issue with the contributions made by anyone else, because they are just the same as anyone who has had their lives disrupted by infidelity. Their voice is as valid as anyone else's, but it is not more valid than anyone's else. And they have no right to tell any other survivor of infidelity that their experiences, opinions, and thoughts have no value.

[This message edited by M1965 at 1:55 AM, Sunday, October 24th]

Everyone, thank you for all of the comments.

But if you could please refrain from fighting with each other. I completely understand everyone has their own opinion. And I will take the advice I see fit. But I am living a living hell right now. So I’d really like to avoid reading you all fighting.

I’d like to update. I found all this out in September 19th. I think a few of you had the time line messed up.

My wife is still out of the house. She is staying with her parents. It’s hard because my 8 year old is starting to ask questions. And with it coming up on a holiday, she’s wondering why we haven’t been doing what we normally do.. decorating, going to events, all the stuff associated with Halloween.

I talked to my lawyer. He is going to write me up a postnuptial agreement, that my wife has agreed to sign. She has also agreed to do everything else I’ve asked. She’s at a point of jump and she says how high.

I’ve gone out with friends a couple times. I’ve been around friends and family during this whole thing. But I still can’t shake this overwhelming feeling of loneliness. Truth is, I miss my wife. I miss my old life. I miss all of it. I was at a point in life where it was going to all be SO good! But it got derailed almost instantly.

I don’t think I can ever forget what she’s done. Everything she did for him can now never be special for me. Sex, hugs, kissing, all of it. It’s now tainted.

How do I move past this insane feeling of sadness and loneliness. Going out with friends makes me sad. I can’t even imagine being single again. Makes me sick.

I like being a family guy. I like being home with them. I like not having to worry about finding someone else to not be lonely.

Ark.

I really feel for you.

Others here no doubt feel the same.

Your wife should have counted her lucky stars to have you.

If she won’t, someone else will, eventually.

This terrible period in your life is not permanent, even if it leaves some scars.

Protect yourself as best you can for now and give yourself some time and space to settle, so you can make the best long term decision you can for yourself and kids. That’s my take on the thread.

Often people are told don’t make big decisions for 3 months post D day. In your case, people were more keen to warn you to be cautious. It sounds like you are doing that. Well done.

If you try to reconcile, your wife has a lot of work to do to be a good enough spouse and parent. She would need to dig deep and find consistent empathy and humility. She might not have it in her. Don’t be conned. Don’t settle for a second-rate marriage or a fantasy.

Your wife doesn’t deserve your forgiveness quite frankly. If you decide to give that gift anyway, she should treat it as a once in a lifetime blessing she will never forget.

I am sure that those posting will respect your wish not to fight.

Take care brother.

With infidelity, a betrayed spouse is left with bad choices. It sucks. People here will try to help you find the "less bad choice". You could choose D, R, do nothing, rug sweep, none of those options are great. It sucks and it will suck for a long time.

None of us have solutions to make this go away tomorrow. The advice you will get is long term. What’s the best way forward for Ark to be happy in 1, 5 or 10 years?

People say a WS needs to be remorseful before considering R. Why? Because, in the long run, a person with empathy will be less likely to cheat again. A prenup won’t make your WW remorseful. It just gives you a false sense of security.

Don’t consider R because you have a prenup or you fear to be alone. Consider R if your spouse can demonstrate empathy, remorse, and do the work to change.

You have two children, you will never be alone. They are a constant source of joy.

Now, you need to be patient with yourself. It takes time to heal, but you will get there.

Seeing friends and family doesn’t make your pain go away. But, again, it’s a "less bad"solution compared to suffering alone.

Post often

I dont know if this will help or not, but I am going to give you a perspective on the other side, as what you said really resonated with me. I really loved being a husband and a father. I loved providing for my family and taking care of them. We always hosted holidays and the house was filled with people. I loved having dinners together and creating special memories. But my STBXWW blew that up.

It took me a long time to realize that I loved the woman I wanted her to be. Even after Dday, I desperately wanted my old life back. I read everything I could get my hands on that told me we could successfully rebuild our marriage. Every day was a battle for me desperately trying to save my family for the sake of the kids. In the end, I chose to divorce. Here are a few things I have realized:

1. Divorced is hard, but for me, R would have been much worse. I would have carried the whole burden of R as my STBXWW was never a person who saw things through.

2. In order to R, I would have had to extinguish my sense of justice. Yes, I know there can be no payment great enough to offset the cost of betrayal, but see point 1. She wasnt capable of doing much. In fact she wanted me to be in a better place before she could step in as I made her feel too guilty.

3. Being on my own is lonely, but being in my M was even lonelier. Plus my heart broke ever morning when I awoke and realized what my life had become. So yes, 3 years post S now, and i am no longer heartbroken. Lonely yes.

4. Betrayal has changed me in perminant ways. No getting around that. Had I stayed with my STBXWW, I would never have respected nor loved her as a husband should love a wife. She would forever be less than she was in my eyes. Just how I'm wired. She threw me under the bus in so many horrible ways that no amount of work could undo that. As sir George says, some mistakes are built to last.

5. My kids are okay. In fact, they do better with me than their mother. I'm more stable and dependable. Plus, I'm better with them now that their mother is out of my life. I've come to realize just how much of a soul sucking, emotional vampire my STBXWW was and is. People had to point this out to me as I just didnt want to see it.

6. I'm really okay alone. I have my own place and routine. I love my career, and I gave good friends who care about me. I've been on half a dozen dates with women, but I just dont feel it. Maybe my heart has been too damaged, or maybe i am just getting really good at being alone. In fact, i now guard my alone time and have become very selfish with it. I even crave it.

7. But in the end, I know I have lost something. For me, no amount of contrition from my WW would have gotten that back. It was completely destroyed the moment she betrayed the family. My choice was simple. I could have bellied up to the shit sandwich and eaten it for the rest of my life, shackled to a woman who was never worthy of my affection and respect, or i could recognize that i needed to pick up the pieces and rebuild my life on my own...

I can't say life is good now, but i can say that i am at peace. So sure, i feel lonely at times, but i dont feel broken by any stretch. I no longer wake up dreading the realization of what my life has become, because now i am in control of what it is. And that is pretty damn good.

Hope some of that helps...

I don’t think I can ever forget what she’s done. Everything she did for him can now never be special for me. Sex, hugs, kissing, all of it. It’s now tainted.

How do I move past this insane feeling of sadness and loneliness. Going out with friends makes me sad. I can’t even imagine being single again. Makes me sick.

I like being a family guy. I like being home with them. I like not having to worry about finding someone else to not be lonely.

I don't think any of us ever forget. But... we do get to the point where we're not thinking about it every day, and in time it does feel like something that happened in the past rather than like something which is always happening. Trauma plays weird tricks on our sense of time. Triggers can make us feel like we're reliving the moment and those triggers can go on for years. EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprogramming) can help with that though. It kind of mimics the brain processing we do in REM sleep. Experts don't really know why it works, but I've tried it myself and it can help. You don't forget what happened, but the visceral reaction you have to a particular trigger can be dulled.

I'm almost 7 years out from my dday now, and it took me about 5 years to feel like I had really healed from the injury. My WH and I were married for over 30 years at that point, and I was wrecked, like bug-meets-windshild wrecked. I had gotten into his email and seen way too much; videos, photos, etc. I don't recommend creating more triggers than what is strictly necessary to make your stay or go decision. Miraculously though, we're still together. Like you, I did a lot of things right on dday, so there was no mistake in my fWH's mind about where I stood. He was either going to shape up, get to the root of his malfunction and fix it, or he was going to be kicked to the curb. So, if you're thinking about trying R, the good news is that you're already approaching it from a position of strength and that's a good starting place.

When you're talking about your feelings though... the sadness, loneliness, the pain of the betrayal, there just aren't any shortcuts. We can't go over, under, or around. We've got to go through and feel what we feel. There's a certain amount of grief we need to process, and most of us will experience The Five Stages; denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. The stages might show up in any order and repeat themselves over and over until finally one day you come to some form of "acceptance" that sticks. This kind of intimate betrayal is a BIG DEAL. It messes with your mind. For those of us who experience it as trauma (and heck, I'd have to say that's most of us), it changes the brain. We find the amygdala (fight, flight, freeze) stuck on high alert, startling frequently and releasing adrenaline and cortisol. It felt to me like some invisible entity yelling "boo!" in my ear a hundred times a day. At four months out, I was so sick to my stomach that I'd have divorced my WH on the spot if I though for a minute that it would make that nauseous roiling in my stomach stop. Instead, I saw my medical doctor and let her put me on some medication.

I do think it helps to understand what is happening to your brain and how your mind affects the body. Toward that end, you might read through a copy of The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk who is hand's down the world's leading expert on trauma. I felt so much better when I understood why I felt the way I did. Another good book that will also inform you on the brain/body connection is The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson. Even though that one is geared more toward people who have split, it helped me more than just about any thing else I've read. The author reminds us that we are hardwired from birth to cling to our primary person and to fear abandonment. It's why we cry for our mother as infants. And that attachment can transfer, even though we don't realize it or need it any more. We can become enmeshed with our primary person in such a primal way that when our attachment is severed, like it is when we're betrayed, it amplifies ever other abandonment wound we've ever had and the pain becomes immense. I also like this book because she's got a few exercises to get us started relearning emotional self-reliance which is key.

Anyway, there are a lot of things that helped me heal that you're probably not ready for yet. Right now, you're probably still trying to make your stay or go decision. What helped me with that was taking ownership or my choice and reminding myself that I'm free to change my mind later if I need to. For people who decide to try R, owning your choice can make you feel less victimized. YOU decide where to plant your feet and for how long to plant them and YOU are responsible for where you stand. It's empowering to look at it that way and it makes you feel less trapped.

Later on, I dealt with forgiveness issues. Hell, it took me all of five years to even be able to call it "forgiveness". I still to this day want to spit like I've got a bad taste in my mouth just choking on the word. Some things are just unforgivable, right? But what I did realize is that I could get to a point where I could "write off" the emotional debt. My fWH did all the right things and I can tell you honestly that if there was any power on earth he could employ to change what he did, he would. I basically made an accountant's trick of this part, totting up all that he had done right and then writing off the rest. They can't pay us back for the pain they've caused. It's just not possible. No matter how good they might become, this thing still happened. It happened and it was NOT okay.

All in all, if you decide to try R, it's a process, a long one. There are so many issues to deal with and all you can do is try your earnest best. In the long run, you'll either find ways to process the trauma which make sense to you, or you'll decide it was a good run but R is not right for you. Healing and grieving are going to take their own sweet time either way you go though and there's not a whole lot you can do to speed that up. But... we do get better. We're all living, breathing, squabbling proof that you can get through this mess. We've all been there and come out on the other side. And you will too.

Strength to you as you process.

Ark I’m sorry you are facing this situation. What should be the happiest time with a newborn has turned into a bloody nightmare.

You might be able to reconcile — only time will tell if your wife will commit to making amends and trying to repair the damage.

You might be able to forgive her one day.

Then again you might be the kind of guy that just cannot get past the affair and you eventually realize Reconciliation just won’t work.

It hard to know the outcome but I applaud you for being rational and thinking of your family. Right now you are doing your best and settling in to the "life after fidelity" marriage.

I am someone who is happily reconciled. Easy? No. Worth it? Yes.

But I stayed b/c I do love him and he made serious changes, had immediate remorse and 8 years later I’ve had no issues or suspicious behavior from him. I didn’t stay b/c of kids or any other reason than I loved him. But if he didn’t change I would have Divorced him.

Wishing the best for you. Good idea for the post nup. I have one too.

Today has been hard. Really hard.

My wife is back at the house. My attorney advised me to be around my new born as much as possible. It’s hard to bounce from our home to her parents with my 8 year old. So lastnight my daughter was asking, "when is mommy coming home?!" And then my wife was asking if I could help with the new baby. So I just told her to come home, so I could be with the new born, and she could see our other daughter.

Today- I gave the baby to my wife at 9am. I didn’t sleep at all. The baby cried everytime I put her down. So I went to bed at 9am this morning, was woken up periodically by my 8 year old (checking on me) and my wife (also checking on me. When I woke up around 230pm I decided to go to the grocery store. Mainly to get out of the house and breath for a minute.

Before I left my 8 year old asked if I could cook burgers tonight. So I did that. When I got home I decided to put my pain in a bottle and just focus on making my 8 year old happy.

Then we sat at the dinner table. My 8 year old started asking me what mommy and daddy were going to be for Halloween? And I felt it all start to come undone. The bottle was cracking. So I grabbed my new born, and left my half eaten burger on the table. I sat on the couch and just started tearing up uncontrollably.

My wife then tried comforting me. Then My 8 Year old came over trying to do the same. So I left and went into our bedroom and locked the door. Just crying and crying and crying.

The thought that my wife would throw all of this away? Not care to think how her affair before, during, and after the pregnancy would absolutely cripple me. It would wreck our home, our kids, friends, family. Put a stop to our future.

It just kills me. I can’t put myself in her shoes. I can’t even imagine doing that to her or our kids. There is no way in hell I could. I don’t understand how her double life seemed so easy to do?

We were looking at purchasing a new house, new cars, traveling more. And the whole time she was doing that?!

It was a bad day. It still is. I’m currently in our bathroom writing this trying to calm myself down.

What you are going through is very hard. Your wife has abused you for a very, very long time and it's now coming to light just how long. It hits like a ton of bricks.

What happens to all of us in situations like this is that our body kicks us into fight or flight mode. From eons ago our bodies are conditioned this way. It fills us with all sorts of hormones designed to protect us.

You are physically, biologically designed to act the way that you are. There is nothing wrong with you. In fact everything is working completely correctly.

In the short term the best way to get out of fight or flight is to remove yourself from the situation and then do what the body wants you to do - exert physically. Go for a run, go for a walk, do pushups. This will not fix the problem, however it will help you get over this uncontrollable feelings of emotions and allow you to wrest a bit of control back into yourself.

Hang in there. It Wii get better. You need to ask your wife these questions.

I don’t understand how her double life seemed so easy to do?

She doesn't think like you. You wouldn't abuse your loved ones, she will and has.

11 months of lying to your spouse's face, exposing your spouse to STDs, risking hurting your kids by breaking up your marriage... just awful things to do to your loved ones.

Your wife did all that. That's what she's capable of, that's who she's been for 11 months.

I agree with Sharkman's post, your wife has abused you.

I'd recommend lots of hard exercise to burn off some of the anger. I'd also consider a single vacation for you to get some space from this mess and calm your mind.

IC for you right now would be good. Try to be kind to yourself and do something everyday that gives you joy - hobbies, exercise, friends, something.

My two cents, reconciling with a woman that was that cruel to you is going to be very difficult.

Very sorry you are on this roller coaster. It is very normal though. Very good advice from sharkman. Please read in the healing library if you haven’t already. Have your WW read “How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair” by McDonald. It’s a good, concise short but excellent read. If she really wants to begin the journey she should read it. You will never make sense of what she did. Don’t try. She was able to put aside and block out all that should be dear to her for supreme selfishness. That’s what a lot of cheating boils down to: supreme selfishness. Do take care of you. Exercise. Eat healthy. Sending you support. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 7:25 AM, October 25th (Monday)]

Ark, sorry to hear you are having such a hard time. You've been through a lot and are dealing with a lot.

Have you seen an IC? I think it may really help to have someone to talk to. Mine really helped me.

I have to echo what Rambler said. Time will help you heal.

You are in a very tough situation. You know your situation best. If you need space from your WW, don't be afraid to say so. If you want to spend time with your kids without her, that's OK too.

Ark - if I may make a suggestion, to add to what your lawyer advised about ensuring that you see your newborn, to stave off your WW’s potential claim of abandoning your child.

Hopefully you’re seeing an IC. If not, you need to do so immediately. You should discuss with your IC the mental trauma you’re feeling because your wife was screwing her AP during her entire pregnancy. Although of course you know the baby is yours, you can’t get it out of your head that the AP’s sperm and the physical act of him having sexual with your WW is causing you to think that he infected (or words to that affect) the unborn child. Also, include the fact that your WW’s physical and mental attachment to the AP was transferred
to the unborn child.

I would run this by your lawyer first, of course.

One additional thing. I realize your heartache is real snd very painful. May I suggest that you try not to cry snd show emotion in front of your wife. She is no doubt using your tears and upset as leverage, plus it adds to her narrative that she’s needs to help heal you while she gets to rug sweep the entire A.

You need to embrace the 180. Show no emotion towards her, only indifference. Only talk to her about your children snd home matters. Get to the gym and take care of yourself and your children. Eat and work out. Carry a VAR at all times. You need to detach from her, especially given the fact that she’s now back in the house. Until you do all of these things, your WW will control you snd the narrative and continue to blame shift, rug sweep, and minimize.

Stay strong!

Doing the 180 and reading books is fine for the future. But right now, you need medical help. You are experiencing a psychological crisis. There are medical interventions that can help you. Your poor innocent child and that monster you married cannot help you.

You are clearly in deep depression and alcohol will not help. It can kill you.

You must do this. Right now. Go to your doctor or a primary care facility and tell them what is going on. They can listen and gauge what needs to be done. They can outline a plan for you to sleep and lessen the depression.

Do this for your children, if not for you. They are already experiencing trauma that will affect them for a long time.

Just do it. Right now.

The unknown is a hard time. You just can’t predict the future. Upfront they may promise the moon. Long term you just don’t know.

Try and read the signs. What is verse what you want to see.

Whatever you do, do not abandon your children. You need them as much, if not more than they do. Do whatever it takes to make their lives as normal as possible. I cried too, but never in front of my kids.

I've made and set appointments to get help! It is something I plan to do 1000000%

im extremely behind in work. my personal business, my day job. all behind.

last night we hooked up. I was at an extremely vulnerable spot. I can't even remember how it happened. but today I feel very indifferent. I feel.. odd. not ashamed? but more of an angry feeling I can't just have sex with my wife without thinking about all of the past nightmares that have happened. I don't think that will happen for a very long time, again. But all I can say is I was in a dark place last night and I just allowed myself to fall into her. I didn't sleep in the same bed, I hardly hugged her afterward. today we spoke about the future and how I still dont see how this can work after everything she's done.

My life right now, huh? Fuck its a wreck.

But im not suicidal. just to put some of you at ease. Those thoughts have never crossed my mind. Have I felt like running away and never coming back, oh absolutely. Who wouldn't?

Im going to get help. Im going to read the 180 (I have yet). I told my boss what's going on, he's willing to help me as much as possible. Im working out, when I can. I've spoken to a lawyer. I've done what I can up to this point.

Again, I just want my daughter to enjoy the holidays. I want to see where I am after that all passes. I dont want to feeling alone during those times, even though I do now.

Ill keep checking in. You all are helping so much!

No judgmental response from me. We all have human needs. Just get some short meds in you to help you sleep at the very least.

Yeah… been doing my best to sleep.