SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I can't agree though that we're seeing anything here which is out of the ordinary for WS's. There's an "ick" factor to her cheating behavior as you pointed out above, but there's been no 'emotional blackmail' regarding the baby. It was the OP who posted that he feels like he won't be able to bond properly if he leaves.

I am not sure anyone mentioned uniqueness. The issues are manipulation and emotional blackmail. I think we would be hard-pressed to find extraordinary or unique elements in any story of infidelity, when commonality and the same tired old justifications are repeatedly trotted out for the same tired old actions, to the point where we wonder if every cheat is working from a well-thumbed copy of the mythical Cheater's handbook. However, lack of creative imagination in the commission of a bad action does not diminish its impact, just as 'lots of other people have done it before' is unlikely to be a successful defense ploy in a murder trial.

The OP posted his anxieties about bonding with the baby independently, in this forum. The sugar-plum happy-family-skipping-through-the-meadow fantasies were sent by the WW separately and independently of that, without knowledge of the OP's post, and entirely in her own interest. She wanted to give the impression that if Ark chooses divorce, he will be taking a fantasy happy future away from his children, because she does not want him to divorce her.

That is targeted manipulation. And in my book, using so much imagery involving the children she betrayed to a man she has treated so horribly is obvious emotional blackmail, and a blatant attempt to exploit a vulnerability in an already badly hurt man by someone trying to save her own ass. Frankly, her callous and cynical use of her children as a tool to protect herself from facing the consequences of her actions makes my blood run cold, regardless of how many other callous and cynical people may have done the same or worse in the past, or who may do it in future. The fact that she is capable of doing something like that is one of the reasons why so many people are warning Ark to be very careful of her, because it is hugely revealing of who she really is, and how low she will stoop. I do not see that as insignificant or nothing to worry about.

If the Disney-esque happy future montage was not an attempt to manipulate the betrayed husband, and influence his decision-making, why was it messaged to him at all?

[This message edited by M1965 at 11:23 PM, Friday, October 22nd]

And if the Disney-esque happy future montage was not an attempt to manipulate the betrayed husband, and influence his decision-making, why was it messaged to him at all?

I'm not arguing that the WW hasn't done horrible things or that her current behavior qualifies her as an acceptable candidate for R. But neither is she some kind of Machiavellian genius either. Her mentioning family plans might simply be an indicator of why she wants to stay in the marriage. It could also be a manipulation. Hell, it could be both. My point is that we DON'T KNOW. Most WS's are guilty of manipulating toward their preferred outcome. The kind of selfishness which creates intimate betrayal doesn't just disappear in a poof of remorse on dday.

It takes TIME and it takes effort for a WS to turn it around. Some eventually accomplish it, some don't. Some can't even be bothered to try. We don't know. And that's my point. We can help Ark with a lot of things, but his are the boots on the ground, and any time he hears someone say, "oh yes, this is definitively what's happening" , he would be wise to take that with a big ol' shovel of salt.

We don't know anything yet. And likewise, we don't know the people we're commenting on. If we should not talk with these acceptances, we should not talk about anything.

Our main sources here are the OP's descriptions, personal experiences, and typical behaviors we've read thousands of.

Considering these, we state our impressions and opinions. We often use expressions that indicate possibilities and the degrees of these possibilities, not certainty.

On what basis do you assert that this WW's post DDay behavior is calculated and manipulating???

Her mentioning family plans might simply be an indicator of why she wants to stay in the marriage. It could also be a manipulation. Hell, it could be both.

Most WS's are guilty of manipulating toward their preferred outcome. The kind of selfishness which creates intimate betrayal doesn't just disappear in a poof of remorse on dday.

Spot the difference?

[This message edited by M1965 at 12:49 AM, Saturday, October 23rd]

Spot the difference?

Not sure I'm following. We have no way of knowing what's going through the mind of the WS, and THAT is my point. Is it right to point out potential red flags? Yeah, of course. Should we demonize this particular WW because we don't like the "ick" factor in her story? No. As I said before, she's not likely to be some Machiavellian genius bent on the OP's destruction. It's more likely that she's just another garden variety cheater trying to save her home situation. Should Ark be cautious? YES. Of course he should be cautious. Desperate people can do desperate things. That's no cause to be making shit up from whole cloth though, is it?

There's a lot of real estate between a verbalized bid for pity/mercy and a calculated PLOT to frame the OP for domestic violence. We can call both of those things "manipulation" because both are designed to move the BS in the WW's desired direction. But it's not the same thing. Yes, it's still selfish behavior either way, but the intent to injure makes the "calculated plot" malignant. There's no injury in the "bid for pity/mercy". It's benign. We can refuse delivery of it if we want. But it's NOT unusual and most cheaters who hope to keep their home deal are guilty of trying to maneuver our pity/mercy. It says nothing about their potential in R.

Why did you question Thumos suggesting that the WW was guilty of manipulation when you yourself said, "Most WS's are guilty of manipulating toward their preferred outcome"?

Seriously, logic and common sense are being crucified here. Stick what is left of your mangled hand back into the kitchen waste disposal unit one more time because this time it may work out really well. Only an idiot would take issue with that. Do it and see what happens; nobody can predict the outcome. Do not stereotype the waste disposal unit.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:01 AM, Saturday, October 23rd]

I know, I came in late to the thread, so you've probably moved on. However, when I read this:

She said all of this happened because she didn’t feel like I was showing her attention (threw out the day). However, I was. I was constantly surprising her. I’d always ask if we could do lunch or get coffee after dropping our 8 year old off at school (this is prior to her getting pregnant and during). But I explained to her she never did that for me. She never called to surprise me, date me, send me flirty text. I was already giving her so much. And if she was doing the bare minimum I would have done even more for her and our relationship.

I realize why I leave this forum for months at a time. It's so triggering. I feel anger on your behalf and it's useless emotion. I know, I know, you've probably been told by dozens of good people just how much this is bullshit. It totally is. I will add my voice to the cries from the desert. I suspect you've navigated a way out of this in the ten pages of responses from your initial one, which is the only one I've read yet. Yet, I feel a certain empathy for you.. I'm sure it's been said already, but you did nothing wrong, but love your wife, love your children, and try to do what's right for them, and be a great father.

The bit about you doing things for her and she never did things for you-- never reached out, never flirted.. it's like I'm back there living it again. I remember my wife was trying to tell me (in front of friends) about how she was going to see off her "friend" who was leaving via the local train to do a long trip for business.. (they were just friends she swore up and down). She spoke, laughingly of bringing him a big froo froo drink from Starbucks to see him off with. I snapped. I said "Stop telling this story please." She asked, why? "We have been married fourteen years. FOURTEEN YEARS. In ALL of that time, you have never, EVER brought me a drink from Starbucks, and I'm your damned husband!" This was in front of people at a party, and she could see there was tons I could say that was going to shame her something terrible. The ride home was about what you imagined that night. That was the beginning of the end for me. So I know this feeling you felt when you posted it. Wishing you strength of mind, strength of purpose, and the ability to make hard decisions. That's really the worst part of all of it, the uncertainty.

JMO, as mentioned several times earlier, what man sleeps with a married woman 34 weeks pregnant and what woman cheats on the father of her baby at that point? Again, JMO, she WAS sleeping with the father of her baby. When she conceived she and POSOM believed he was the father and carried out a 9 month pregnancy allowing her husband, Ark, to believe it was his. Yet every, EVERY, special moment was shared with POSOM in the background.

And if WW knew about the DNA test, and was in the same vicinity as the kit, no matter how remote, Ark needs to redo that test. Imagine her shock when the results came back that Ark was the paternal parent and not POSOM, or was it?

So being a garden variety cheater, following the cheater’s script matters not, there are things a wayward can do that can’t be walked back. Allowing a man to think he is the father of an Other Child is probably first or second for most men. It matters not that Ark is actually the paternal parent, the intent was there.

Why did you question Thumos suggesting that the WW was guilty of manipulation when you yourself said, "Most WS's are guilty of manipulating toward their preferred outcome"?

Poor choice of verbs on my part. I think it would have been better if I had said "maneuvering toward their preferred outcome". It's just another word for manipulating, but it's more benign I think, more descriptive of the "bid for pity/mercy" and lacking the malice of the "calculated plot". At the bottom line, the issue is still about demonizing the WS without proof of her intent.

When she conceived she and POSOM believed he was the father and carried out a 9 month pregnancy allowing her husband, Ark, to believe it was his.

{snip}

...there are things a wayward can do that can’t be walked back. Allowing a man to think he is the father of an Other Child is probably first or second for most men. It matters not that Ark is actually the paternal parent, the intent was there.

Where did you read that? Was it on his reddit thread? or.. is this another unsubstantiated supposition? Unless you've seen something that I haven't, we have no way to know the WW's intent. And while it's true that waywards can't walk anything back, and that there's A LOT of stigma in the case of WW's actually getting pregnant during an affair, even then it's not an impossible situation. It hasn't been so long since we had a poster who is in R and has accepted an OC as his own. Again, I'm not suggesting a path forward to the OP, but I'm not going to tell him that there's no hope if he does decide he wants R.

You do not ask the attorney questions. You give the attorney the entire situation and ask what are your rights and what do you need to do to protect yourself.

More than likely nothing bad will happen. However, maybe something will. The email or text was very advanced and pointed. She specifically used certain words.

Until you sort this out, protect yourself and your kids.

Where did I say OP couldn’t accept an OC? Was tha more unsubstantiated supposition?

Where did you read that?

Try reading the thread CT, it’s not in black and white but what I posted is MY OBSERVATION.

{snip}

As in JMO.

You’ve ask for and presented with examples of WW’s manipulation. Only to change your issue to the WW is a run-of-the-mill cheater to what now, this is all supposition?

I’d dare to say nearly every bit of advice we give on SI is based off supposition, what are we doing here then?

More supposition: OP GET a VAR and have it on you at ALL times.

Not supposition: OP KNOCK off the abusive talk, is understandable to be hurt and mad but you need to man-up in that respect.

End of T/j.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass DeWittle. It just shouldn't be that hard to refrain from presenting supposition as fact. The facts on their own are already devastating and difficult enough without people making things up.

Dear Ark,

I have to clarify, looking back and rereading ChamomileTea’s posts, that she is accurate in her points as well. No one, least of all internet strangers (well intentioned though we are), should dictate how you proceed. We have a tendency to read our own experiences into these stories and often offer advice that worked for us, or the advice we wish we took, when we took completely different paths. We will offer our takes on your situation, and offer solace for the hell you’re in, and sometimes we border on giving "black or white" advice. I’m guilty of this sin myself.

The reason I believe it’s necessary you speak with an attorney comes from my personal and professional experience. However, please realize that my own opinions are skewed by the limited experiences I’ve had.

I tend to see the downside, or pitfalls, of situations and take proactive steps in case those downsides or pitfalls block your path, however you are going.

I am concerned, based on the wording of that text, that there MIGHT be a pitfall or a problem on the horizon. And, I think you absolutely need to be mindful of it and speak with an attorney that can help you navigate that in your own jurisdiction. It’s like finding a random lump on your body – what do you do? Not every lump is cancer. Not every cancer is a lump. But, you need to go see the doctor to get it checked out because of what it could be. This is the same idea. You need a professional to help you navigate the situation based on what it COULD be. In my eyes, that’s what needs to be done.

After consulting with a lawyer, or before, please realize that this is YOUR call on what to do with your marriage. There are a thousand things you have to review and come to decisions about, all while feeling terrible. It’s the worst place to be in your life, and we have all been there. And, you have your kid’s lives to think about too.

Are your WW’s actions the worst ever seen here? No. Have people kept a marriage together in worse circumstances? Yes. Does it happen normally? I don’t think so.

The calculus behind this problem, at least for many of us, is that since we cannot trust our partner anymore, is there a way we can regain a modicum of it or are we putting ourselves in danger staying? Is there going to be more cheating? What else could they do to us? Are their feelings (often faked for so long) suddenly heartfelt or are they a form of placation by our partner to get us back in line? Anyone here would have issues trusting the sudden sincerity of their wayward partner.

And, that’s really the issue. Trust. We trust partners with huge life decisions – buying a home, finances, children, end of life decisions, etc. If we suddenly find out that the trust is gone that we relied on in making those decisions, then it scares a normal person to trust again. This is especially the case with a wayward partner that essentially lived a secret double life for an extended period… "wait, you said I love you every morning for a year, and I believed it, but you didn’t really love me at all… and now you love me?" We have problems trusting them for obvious reasons.

On their end, you’ve got to know what they’re fighting for, and why. Your WW, in only my opinion, couldn’t "love" you while in an active affair. She was in that for the past year, that we know of. While this secret life is probably "out" imagine the self hatred you’d have, or the fear that this egregious immoral conduct would be shared. Your WW probably fears wearing the "Scarlet A" for the rest of her life. It’s hard for any person to own up to their faults when there are serious consequences – and here is a huge one. Any normal person’s first instinct is to avoid consequences. That’s human. And that’s likely what she’s doing currently. I don’t judge her for it. It’s predictable, and we all do something like that, in some form or another, during our lives.

If you combine these two sentiments – that she probably didn’t "love" you during the affair and that she’s desperately trying to avoid consequences – (AGAIN BOTH HUMAN THINGS TO DO) then you have a possible danger area.

It’s not CERTAIN that she would do something terrible here, like fabricate stuff, but it is varying degrees of possible. No one here knows how likely, or unlikely, her doing some action is going to be going forward. We can only see that it might be possible.

What you have shared with us is that your anger – righteous anger might I add – is coming out. Just because you’re emotionally hurt, it won’t shield YOU from consequences if you do something wrong. The things you’re saying, she has already classified as "emotionally abusive" and she is likely right – they could be taken that way.

If they’re things that are happening with her and you when you’re talking, then, the absolute consensus is… cut that out. First, it’s not productive and you won’t look back on it fondly no matter how your marriage plays out. Second, it could pose a danger if there is a divorce and you have to argue for custody. Third, it could be used as evidence against you for a possible DV action.

Will these things happen? No idea.

Do you need to be prepared that these bad things COULD happen if you keep up those types of exchanges? You need to speak with a lawyer about that, but I would think you’d need to be on alert for that possibility.

Can any of us tell you how likely one of those bad outcomes could happen? Absolutely not. We are not fortune tellers, just a group of people with the same trauma and a set of tools we used to navigate it.

This forum is more to help get you through the typical danger areas and to let you know you’re not alone. And you’re not alone. We are here to listen. You’ll hear "take what applies to you, and leave the rest." When you’re scared, you may latch onto another person’s prospective because you can’t figure out where you want to go.

What we are here to do is to be a kind ear, and also convince you that YOU control your decisions here. A bad thing happened. You’re hurt and scared. You’re trying to find a path.

We are here to listen to you until you find that path you want to walk – the path YOU want to walk. We are not here to tell you what path to take. All we can offer is our own experiences and give you some food for thought while you’re deciding how you handle this.

I will say though, there is NOTHING to be lost by getting consults with attorneys to get legal advice. There is a HUGE AMOUNT that could be lost if you don’t. In that thought, I would say that you absolutely NEED to consult a lawyer based on the pitfall that MIGHT jump out in your path, and take steps to make sure you know how to get around it. This is jurisdiction specific advice, so you MUST get a lawyer in your state for the correct legal advice.

And, that’s my contribution here. I think I implied that you should file, and for that I apologize. I stand by my comment that there is the possibility that you are in danger. I stand by my advice that you need a lawyer to give you legal advice. But, in retrospect, after reading ChamomileTea’s statements, I want to make sure you know that YOU get to make the decision of where you want to go from here with your marriage. And we will all be a sounding board as you go through the process. I can’t offer legal advice – you need a lawyer in your own jurisdiction for that. And, I am terrible with the feeling advice, so I stay out. But, I write here to reiterate, once again, that I hope you make the decisions, whatever they are with your marriage, that lead to an awesome life, for both your children and you. You are in the driver’s seat with how YOU want to make YOUR decision. Never, ever, forget that.

Waggingthedog continues to give you good advice. Of course it's your decision Ark. We can only give you our opinion.

Here's an important thing:

I stand by my comment that there is the possibility that you are in danger.

It's important in these situations to consider possibility vs. plausibility. Why so? Because your mind has already been tormented and traumatized by a lengthy period of gaslighting by an individual who practiced cunning deceit and manipulated and abused you.

It's difficult to know what's real and what isn't.

If you ask yourself, is a thing possible? Of course. Just about anything is possible. But is it plausible? That creates a new hurdle. All sorts of things are possible. But only certain things are plausible, that is to say, most likely to be the case.

In your case, I'd say it's not only possible but highly plausible that your wife was being coached and wrote that lengthy memo as some kind of stage setting. She's been in control all along, not you.

It's not only

possible

but

plausible

she'd like to stay in control (by the way, I do judge anyone who does this sort of thing as not only manipulative, but an abuser, and such behavior is sociopathic and certainly grossly self-centered).

Ask yourself, have my wife's actions for AN ENTIRE YEAR been the actions of someone with empathy and concern for others, or the actions of a manipulator and abuser who wants what she wants and doesn't care who gets hurt?

Ask yourself, what sort of person who thinks of herself as a good mother puts the wellbeing of her unborn child at risk?

What mother would put her older child at risk?

What type of person puts their faithful partner at risk for life-threatening sexually transmitted disease?

And then ask, what empirical evidence do I have that this person who has already demonstrated she is a selfish manipulator and abuser has had a sudden transformation into the opposite?

Aside from her empty words in texts, is she actually doing anything to indicate authentic remorse vs. mere regret over her choices?

And then ask, am I safe around such a person?

I can't answer those for you. Only you can.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:20 PM, Saturday, October 23rd]

Conversations between two people who love each other can sometimes be adversarial but they do not have to be painful. If your stomach gets in knots every time you deal with her there’s some manipulation going on that you’re just not getting. If it’s been going on for years then you’re so used to it that you are just used to feeling bad. This is all over the Internet but the very best sentence you will ever need to learn is the one that just says "NO".

Ark,

I read the following sentence like so:

I get you want to hurt me SO badly & since you can’t get away with physical assault, psychological abuse is all you got.

"I fear you are so upset you could physically hurt me, I’m afraid you want to hurt me and the only thing protecting me is the law"

I don’t know you. If you think you could get close to this point (some do), walk away. If you are not that type of man, I apologize.

If her fear is unjustified and she feels physically threatened anyways, don’t go near her. She is either setting you up for false DV claim or… she is not but she is doing the "pity me my husband is mad I cheated on him". Either case, don’t go near her.

And while she is away, that will give you time to breathe and process the situation.

If you worry about custody for your new born, ask your lawyer. What would custody look like?

Next time your WW wants to "help you", tell her to go to IC and fix her own issues. Tell her to write a detailed timeline of all her infidelities which will be verified with another poly (you don’t have to but telling her this helps). Right now, you don’t have the full story. How can you make a decision if you don’t have the full story?

Any written communication with her has to be written as if a juge would read it.

Have you talked about your situation with friends and family? Seek support from them. You don’t have to hide your WW’s behavior. You job is to focus on your healing. See a doctor (for STD and trouble sleeping etc). Talk to you family. Go have a beer with your best friend. Go to IC.

With all due respect, I object to such a disabling of rationality.

I object to trying to equate 99% with 1% as they are both possibilities.

Of course, everyone here has their own opinion, but I object to these being portrayed as hurted people who make subjective comments that have no validity.

As we all know, the mental state of BSs are open to all kinds of lies and manipulations of WSs. Instead of giving false hope, I find it much more helpful for a BS to be reminded of the bitter truth over and over. This is neither a lie nor does it aim to increase their pain. Actually, I find the opposite dangerous.

Reason, logic, experience, observation etc. they have a value I'm not saying "I think" they have a value. Because that's not my opinion, it's a fact. Not everything I say is opinion, some of them are facts. As in what others say.

How do we know? Not because I want it that way, ok? That's why the concepts I mentioned above are valuable.

If these require us to remain silent, I would also ask, how do you know this story is true, how do you know the OP is really married, how do you know he is not a 15 year old teenager?

How sure are you of the truth of what you think you know, that you question others'?

Waggingthedog made very very good points. But frankly, I am bothered by some of his back steps. More precisely, because of he feels to do that way.

No Waggingthedog, you don't have to say Your WW, in only my opinion, couldn’t "love" you while in an active affair. That's not only your opinion, that's a fact. There is no need to be said as if it could be thought otherwise.

And your suggestion to file isn't unreasonable either. If he files, it won't do him any harm, but if he doesn't, it can. Then why not suggest it? Isn't that what most of our suggestions are? Who is knowingly making a suggestion that could potentially harm BS? When that happens, don't others immediately point out their drawbacks? Then why should we hesitate?

Finally, I apologize to OP for going off topic.

Just a thought Ark. it has only been a week since your entire world was blown up and you are still trying to get your bearings, flailing around in pain and anger. Take your time. You will figure this out. Of course you are getting a full court press to run and file for D. That is what normally happens here and it is not bad advice. It is one way to remove you from infidelity. But not the only way. The other is to R. But no one here will advise you to try and R. There is no basis for it at this point JMO.

Your WW is not showing any signs of true remorse yet. In fact there are red flags in her behavior. Their is no rush to make a decision. This is not a race. You have a newborn baby and an eight year old approaching the holidays. Take care of yourself. Take care of your kids. Get into IC to help you process your pain and anger. You have suffered a real trauma. Time is your ally. You need to figure out whether even if your WW is totally remorseful that this is something you can get past. And even if you decide you are open to R, you have to watch your WW’s actions to see if she is even a candidate for R. Do your best to give yourself a breather and some space to grieve what you have lost. Get healthy. Get strong. Read in the healing library. You will get through this one way or another. We all have. Good luck.